Volume 3: Frank & Tilden

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Transcripts of Carl Rogers' Therapy Sessions

Edited by Barbara T. Brodley and Germain Lietaer

Volume 3: Frank & Tilden

The Case of Frank– [1943]
Introduction page 2
Sessions 1-5 5
The Case of Mary Jane Tilden – [1945]
Session 1 19
Session 2 Ending excerpt 24
Session 3 25
Session 4 No transcript
Session 5 Excerpt 36
Session 6 No transcript
Session 7 Condensation/Excerpts 40
Session 8 No transcript
Session 9 Excerpts 42
Session 10 Excerpts 45
Session 11 48



These transcripts are available for purposes of research, study and teaching. They may not be sold.

Throughout these interviews the response of the counselor (C) (Rogers), and the subject (S) are numbered for easy reference.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC


C O U N S E L I N G C A S E S

Edited by Carl R. Rogers, Director of Counseling Services, U. S. O.

[The following excerpts from five sessions with Frank came from Rogers’ tenure as director of counseling for the United Service Organization (USO) during World War II.]

This is one of a series of case reports of the counseling of individuals. In each case the counseling has been of the client-centered or non-directive variety, and in each case all or a substantial portion of the interviewing is reported verbatim, in order that the reader may study, analyze, and criticize the techniques used. The most helpful way of studying each report is for the reader to cover the unread portion of any interview material, formulating his own response before reading the response actually made. In this way significant practice is obtained.

The cases in this series are drawn from counseling situations with men in service and out, with students, children, and parents. Both sexes and varying grades of intelligence are represented. The counselors, in most instances, are counselors in training, and in only one or two instances are highly experienced. Consequently, the counseling techniques used are often imperfect, and in some cases significant mistakes are made, which the reader may note. In general however, the counseling procedures are of good quality.

The purpose of presenting this series is to indicate the way in which counselors of differing qualifications have applied the principles of client-centered counseling to a variety of individuals with a wide range of problems, and to illustrate the satisfactory results achieved. The reader who is not familiar with these principles is referred to Counseling and Psychotherapy, by Carl R. Rogers, Houghton Mifflin, 1942.

Study of these cases should be profitable for counselors of servicemen, student counselors, workers in mental hygiene clinics, and also to clergymen, USO workers, and other semi-professional counselors who are undertaking counseling responsibilities.


FRANK - A STUDENT – [1943]

The reader will find this to be a good example of client-centered counseling showing many typical features in this approach, both in the counselor’s method of handling and in the changing aspects of Frank’s attitudes as the counseling process continues.

There are several points which are worthy of special note:



  1. Frank is initially unwilling to seek help for himself and the way in which this situation is handled warrants careful study. It will be noted that by keeping the responsibility with the student the counselor helps him to reveal some small concern about himself almost at once. (See bottom of page 4 / top of page 5).




  1. It will be seen that when the counselor deals with problems that are of concern to the client a rapid progression is made from superficial problems to deeper and deeper levels of problems.




  1. Although the first two interviews are largely “talking out” processes there are a few statements which indicate the beginnings of self-understanding. In the third interview, particularly on pages 8 and 9, significant insight is achieved.




  1. The fourth interview represents a distinct slump in progress. This often occurs when the client has made rapid progress and begins to see the difficult implications of his changing view of himself.




  1. The fifth interview contains not only a fresh surge of insight but many new choices and positive actions.




  1. This case illustrates the point that when satisfactory insight and reorientation are achieved the client is ready to leave the counseling situation on his own initiative.




  1. Some of the changes in attitude which have occurred in this case will be found on page 16. This process of summarizing the attitudes which have been expressed in the interview is a very helpful exercise for the counselor as a matter of working procedure.

There is no better way of preparing for a coming interview than to carefully summarize the major attitudes which the client has voiced in the previous contact. Consequently the reader would find it worthwhile to summarize Frank’s attitudes for the second, third, and fourth interviews in order to observe more adequately the gradual progress of change.



  1. The reader might be interested to know that several months after the conclusion of these counseling contacts the counselor received a letter from Frank saying that he had not only taken the job of which he had spoken but that “I am happy to be able to tell you that I am still working and have been advanced to the position of Junior Foreman”. Some other phrases from the letter are also of interest. After complaining of the heat he adds “But the far more important thing is that mentally and psychologically I have disciplined and attuned myself, so personally I am pretty well satisfied with my conduct during the summer period. I hope I am not unduly complacent and optimistic. I haven’t forgotten for one moment the many vulnerable chinks in my personality armor and whenever a situation comes up within which these personality feelings arise I meet the challenge with all the vigor that I can bring to bear. I am aware there is much more that could and will be done but progress is perceptible and much that is lasting and good is necessarily slow. The progress does represent the further reorientation of myself."

THE CASE OF FRANK - 1943

Frank is a junior in college. He has a mediocre record as far as grades are concerned, and a poor record in other respects. He came to his present university after being expelled from a previous university because of his behavior. During the present year he has been a serious problem because of argumentative and attention-getting behavior in the classroom, because of his lack of effort, and because of many instances of unco-operative behavior. He has, for example, refused, in spite of requests, letters, and threats of expulsion, to take the psychological examination required of all students. He will turn in a mid-term exam on which he has attempted only the first page of a long objective test. The dean of students and one of his professors have talked to him, tried to get him to “snap out of it,” but to no avail.

This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may

not be sold.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC

THE CASE OF FRANK

First Interview. May 18, 1943

(The interview is reported from notes kept by the counselor during the interview.)


Frank had previously come to the office and asked for an appointment, saying that the dean had sent him. He appeared on this date, at the time set. After a word of greeting, the interview went as follows.
C: I don’t believe I know much about why you are here. The dean mentioned you some time ago, but I know very little about it.
1S: Well, the dean and Prof. R. wanted me to come to see you. They said you were a good psychologist, and that if you studied me you might be able to diagnose my adjustment. They think I’m not getting along very well, and if you diagnosed what was the matter, you would be able to help me.
1C: They think you need some help, and you’re trying to do what they wish.
2S: Well, they say I’m not doing as well as I should, and if you studied me, you could say why.
2C: Well, now I’ll tell you, Frank, I really haven’t had much luck helping students with problems that the dean thinks they have. I don’t know whether I can be of any help to you along that line or not. When a student is concerned about some problem that he thinks he has, then frequently we can work out something together, but otherwise, I don’t believe I get very far. I wonder, quite aside from what the dean thinks about you, whether you feel that there is anything about your situation that is causing you concern.
3S: Well, I don’t know --- I suppose I don’t live up to my ability.
3C: That’s something you feel a little concerned about.

4S: Yes, I don’t know, I guess I procrastinate; I just don’t get things done on time. I don’t see why. I’ve thought about that a lot and tried to analyze it, but I don’t seem to have helped it.

4C: So you feel you really do procrastinate, and that you’ve been unable to do anything about it.
5S: Yes. Well, you see I started college at D--- College. Up to that time I had a good record – a good high-school record, and I had ambitions and things I wanted to do, but I don’t know, I sort of drifted in the dorm. There were 175 students there, and I was always in on all the discussions and bull sessions. The Profs talked to me there, because they felt for some reason that I was a disturbing factor. I sort of quieted down for a while, but then I was back on the same basis. The dean told me he didn’t know just what it was that I did, but that I was always in the center of trouble. At the end of the year I was put out of the dorm.
5C: You don’t feel sure what you did, but somehow – (interrupted)

6S: Well, they seemed to think something was wrong. And then the next year it was the same story in a boarding house. (He continues throughout the remainder of the interview to pour out a long and detailed story of his college difficulties. “Then came the tragic period” when he began to drink increasingly, and finally became involved in a drunken episode where a group of fellows broke windows in a number of homes with empty bottles. They were arrested, but he denied everything, and the police had to release him for lack of proof. He also tells of “the apathy” which he feels whenever he is supposed to meet some responsibility. He failed to register for the draft, when he should have, and this entailed a long series of difficulties. He failed to pay his college fees when he should, and this too led to much difficulty. “I could have done something about that, but I felt that I would let it drag along.” Then came another episode where he had let himself become involved in hiding and protecting a young fellow who had committed a burglary. This too led to serious difficulties, and a short jail sentence. Throughout all this telling he was quite defensive, scarcely willing for the counselor to say a word, so that the counselor simply paid alert attention, interposing nothing but “I see” or “Hmm.” The interview closed as follows:

6S: I’ve been in lots of troubles, so many that it surprises me, and I regard myself as weak, perhaps, and I know that I haven’t faced situations, but I’m not bad.
7C: You feel that you have some faults, but you’re not really bad.
7S: Sometimes I feel like kicking myself for wasting 2 ½ years. I feel that it’s lack of self-discipline on my part. I feel that I’ve never had any real responsibility. I guess that all adds up.
8C: You feel that you just haven’t been able to take yourself in hand. Well, I see our time is up. Would you like to come in next week at the same time and see whether you can work on some of these things?
8S: Yes, I think I would. Another thing I might mention. I’ve had a few verbal clashes with professors, and the dean thinks that I defy them for the sake of defiance. I don’t agree. It’s just because I’m interested in the subject, and I have some ideas that are sort of radical.
9C: You’ve been accused of these things, but you believe that what seems to be defiance is just intellectual interest.
9S: Yes.

This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may not be sold.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC
THE CASE OF FRANK

Second Interview. May 25, 1943


(The interview is reported from notes kept by the counselor during the interview.)
C: Hello, Frank. Have a chair. What’s on your mind today that you would like to talk about?

10S: Well, I’ve thought of one other thing of immediate importance. I avoid – well, because of my eyes, I can’t see at all well, and I fail tests and do things poorly because of my eyes, but I don’t face the situation. I just don’t do anything about it when I could. For instance, I don’t ask for a different seat so that I could see the board better. I just avoid meeting the thing squarely.

10C: You feel it is a reason for some of your difficulties, but you also blame yourself for not doing something about it.
11S: Yes. I also read at a slow rate on account of the rather unusual visual difficulty that I have, but that makes me fail objective tests where you have to read rapidly. (Goes on with other material about the unfairness of objective tests.)
11C: You think the tests are not fair, and especially unfair to you because of your eyes.
12S: And yet I don’t like to have allowances made for me either. I don’t like to bring up the matter. I feel as though people might think I would use my eye difficulty to my advantage.
12C: On the one hand you feel your eyes keep you from success, but on the other hand you dislike to take any steps about it.
13S: Yes, I think that problem is the main one which interferes with my college success. That’s what makes me feel like exploding inside sometimes. The instructor will have a blackboard exam, for instance, and I just get so mad inside!
13C: You feel mad, but you don’t do anything about it.
14S: I guess that’s all on that problem. The other problems are kinda funny. They’re emotional problems. (Pause) I have often thought that I think too much about things. I can’t make a decision, not even a simple one, without thinking and thinking about it. Oh, I’ll even make my roommate tell me which suit to wear, or I’ll try on one, and then another, and then it is so late that I have to run, and I still don’t make up my mind.
14C: You either let your roommate or the pressure of the situation make up your mind for you.
15S: Yes. Another thing, I feel as though when I’m with people I have to hold myself back – I can’t be entirely frank. I don’t know what it is, I just feel as though I might hurt their feelings, or something.
15C: You feel it isn’t quite safe to really let your own thoughts out.

(He goes on to give illustrations, and to talk about his courses, and the fact that other students are pretty irresponsible, “but then, look at me.” He also talks about the fact that he has always been disillusioned. He was brought up in a strict religious home, but is disillusioned about religion. He studies political science, but is disillusioned about that. When he gets to thinking about goals, he feels, “So what?”)

16S: When I was in jail I used to wish I was out. Now sometimes I think this is just a different kind of a jail. Of course there is more freedom, though.
16C: You feel everything has been pretty disillusioning, and that you’re pretty well walled in even when you’re out of jail.
17S: Well, I guess I’m always taking things too seriously, or taking ‘em too lightly.

This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may

not be sold.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC


THE CASE OF FRANK

Third Interview. June 1, 1943


(The interview is reported from notes kept by the counselor during the interview.)
18S: Well, one thing I did this week. I went to see Prof. L. because I had missed his exam. I thought it was to be at 10, and when I got there, there was no one in the room, and I found it had been given at 8. But at least I went and talked to him right away. He was kinda tough, but I got it partly straightened out.
18C: You feel that at least you tried to face the thing at the time it happened.

19S: Yeah. You know another thing – women. I’ve said that I always want things to go my way. I feel with girls I’m frustrated and never do anything right. I’ve gone with a lot of girls. I don’t know how interested I am in ‘em. There was one girl this quarter that I really liked – she could think. (Talks about different girls and this girl in particular.) But I’ve felt usually that I had to put on an act. I don’t know exactly what ground I’m on, or what she thinks of me, and I hate to put out my neck so far as to take the initiative – I just can’t take the risk. I guess I’m afraid of getting hurt. You know, as a matter of fact I find it a lot easier to talk frankly to a new acquaintance than to someone I know well. It doesn’t seem quite so dangerous. I’m just reluctant to really reveal myself – it’s silly, I just make a lot of tentative moves; I never dare really to say what I think to a girl.

19C: You think you’re more of a General McClellan than a General Grant in your methods.
20S: Yeah, that’s it! It’s the same indecision as I have about clothes and everything. Another thing that disturbs me is that I don’t know whether I am sincere or not. My good friends think I’m not sincere.
20C: You wonder whether you really are genuine.
21S: I’ve really questioned myself about that. I just got news that one of my best friends was killed in Italy, and I ask myself how sincere was my interest in him. I don’t know. (Pause) There is so much time that we waste in our little acts. But we can’t be direct or frank. People can’t understand that, if you are. (Pause) As far as I can tell, those are the things that really bother me.
21C: You’re concerned about your inability to make decisions, and the fact that it is so hard for you to be yourself, and you wonder how sincere you really are. (Long, long, pause)
22S: As I see it, I have to decide on the limitations of my own capacity. I have to size up my ability, and if you have no discipline – and I haven’t – my family has given me no discipline – they were weak rather than intelligent. My mother didn’t remarry after my father’s death because she wanted to be free to raise the family. She wasn’t of benefit in giving discipline, or any sense of responsibility. The question is how to acquire it. But that pattern has gone on a long time and the changes that would be necessary are repugnant to me – and can I make them? I do have some goals, and if I learn to discipline myself I can reach them, but can I?
22C: You feel you’re facing a pretty deep question that doesn’t have an easy answer. You wonder if you could do it.
23S: I know a friend who overcame some of these things. I think I should be able to learn self-discipline, but –
23C: You feel you should, but you wonder.

24S: (With strong feeling) Gosh, we say that this thing and that thing is a challenge – this problem of meeting your own problems is the realest challenge of all! But hell is paved with good intentions.

24C: You feel it is a challenge, but that doesn’t guarantee that you can meet it.
25S: I need to know how to go about it. I can see some of the details, like facing situations immediately, and meeting them head on, not dodging and evading things.
25C: You feel you see a few of the things you could do.
26S: I’ve probably been a little more conscious of these things since talking with you. But there are lots of questions. Where is the line, for example, between selfish frankness and unselfish frankness? That problem arises with my roommate; when would I be being frank just for my own benefit?
26C: You’re uncertain, and just a little frightened perhaps when you don’t use your mask, or try to be just what you want to be.
27S: Well, I haven’t any religious restraints, and I don’t know what the restraints are, but I feel that there are plenty of them that keep me from going directly for my goal.
27C: Well, I see our time is up. We can talk further next time.
This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may

not be sold.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC
THE CASE OF FRANK

Fourth Interview, June 6, 1943


(The interview is reported from notes kept by the counselor during the interview.)
C: Well, how’s the battle going?
28S: Oh, O.K. I think – at least there have been no retreats. (Pause) In regard to the things I’ve told you before, the only thing I’ve done beside think about things, is to rethink my purposes in realistic terms. I want to think clearly about that and to try to eliminate unnecessary digressions so as to reach my goal more rapidly. I don’t want to waste time. After all, we only have one life.
28C: You want a clear goal, and want to drive straight toward it without a lot of monkey business.

29S: Yeah. (He talks on at some length about the importance of values, discussing the topic in rather abstract terms.) I think I know some of the things I want, but I have to keep prodding myself to keep from following along the line of least resistance.

29C: You feel there are some values you want, but you would also like to drift along. (Pause)
30S: I wonder, what do you think about people changing? That is, you know, our habits are built in by years of training. In my psychology book there are some statements about how difficult it is to change fixed habits. Isn’t it very hard for people to change? What do you think?
30C: You find that psychologists have somewhat different opinions on that. In my experience I would say that habits change readily enough when goals change. Just look at men going into the army. When their goal changes to that of being a good soldier, hundreds of habits they have had for a lifetime drop away over night. But some people do not agree with that way of thinking. You’re evidently wondering how possible it is for a person to change.
31S: Yeah. Well, I don’t know, sometimes I think there are some things I want to do, and some changes I want to make, but I don’t think I’m sure. (Long pause) Sometimes I think that my objective self and my emotional self are in conflict – I can’t quite explain that but (goes on with more material about the conflict within himself, details lost.)
31C: You find you’re pulled two ways about a lot of this.
32S: You know I’m interested in political science, and I’ve thought highly of socialism, because – of course I don’t know what you think of socialism -- but I think it is valuable because under socialism, a country really sets out to know what resources it has, and it has a clear aim in using them. I think I’d like to be the same way.
32C: You’d like to know your resources, and have a clear purpose for using them. (Long pause.)

(It should perhaps be noted here that during this interview speech was much slower than usual; if an actual word count were possible, it would probably show that he spoke about 15 to 20% as many words as in the first interview, when words were flowing rapidly. There were many pauses, even more numerous than indicated. Some of the pauses noted, and those which immediately follow were as long as two or three minutes by the clock – which is a very long silence.)

33C: Sort of hard to find things you want to talk about today.
33S: Yeah. (Long pause)
34C: We have ten more minutes. It’s plain that it isn’t easy to talk today. I don’t mind waiting if you think there are other angles of the thing that you would like to talk out, and on the other hand you are quite free to go if you think you have run out of things you want to talk about.
34S: (Slowly) Well, I think I’ve said all that’s on my mind. I guess I might as well go. (He does not move a muscle to leave, and sits in silence for a long time.)
35C: (Softly) It’s a little difficult to decide whether you want to go or not.
35S: (Rather hastily) Oh no. (Makes a move as if to get up.) I was just wondering whether you had anything you wanted to say to me.
36C: No, I think not. If you wish to come in again it will have to be Friday, because I’m going to be out of town a week from today.
36S: O.K. Friday will be all right for me.

This transcript is available for purposes of research, study and teaching. It may

not be sold.

Source: Container 137, Carl Rogers Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, DC


THE CASE OF FRANK

Fifth Interview. June 9, 1943


(The interview is reported from notes kept by the counselor during the interview.)
37S: One thing I thought of, right after leaving your office last time, was that I’ve never taken the psychological examination here. I have just put off taking it. Tuesday after I was here I thought, well I could put it off, I could take it tomorrow or some time, or I have some time and I could take it now. I took it.
37C: You felt that you could have procrastinated, but you wanted to face the thing on the spot and you did.

38S: Yes, I think it is a small symbol of meeting situations when they arise. Lately I even go out of my way to find things to meet almost. I hope that after a while it will get habitual with me. Most of my troubles have come out of delaying and putting things off.

38C: You feel you have been making some definite changes in yourself.
39S: You know, last time I talked about whether or not people could change their personalities. I used to have such good intentions. I would think, now on Monday, I’ll really turn over a new leaf and change, but then Monday would come and go, and I never did. (Pause) I wonder sometimes what I’ll be like ten years from now, you know everybody wonders what the future will be like, and how he will be.
39C: You’re wondering whether you’ll change or not.
40S: I’d better change! (Both laugh) You know I spoke of the fact that a person’s background retards one. Like the fact that my family life wasn’t good for me, and my mother certainly didn’t give me any of the kind of bringing up that I should have had. Well, I’ve been thinking that over. It’s true up to a point. But when you get so that you can see the situation, then it’s really up to you.
40C: That seems to me to be sound thinking. You feel that your early experience really did warp you, but when you get to the point of understanding it clearly, then what you do about it, and the direction you take, is up to you.
41S: Well, when you gain some self-confidence through mastery of yourself, then things go easier. You know lots of the thinking that I talked about, thinking and thinking about small decisions, that shilly-shallying, is just a way of getting out of making the decisions.
41C: All that careful weighing was just a way to avoid committing yourself one way or another.

42S: Yeah. You know, another thing I wanted to do – I don’t call it laziness, but I never really have done any hard work. It’s crazy, maybe, but I have never felt that I could, but now I want to. Of course, people don’t want to take on workers for just a few months, but I haven’t wanted to get a job by telling some lie that I had finished college, either. So I’m going to take a job at the Army Depot. It will be hard work. I talked to the man, and he said he would hire me, but when he told me it would be hard manual work, I just didn’t know whether I could take it. So I told him I was considering other jobs too, and I would let him know, but today I decided to take it. I did go to other places, too. I could have gotten easier jobs, though not for as good pay, but clean work, and easier. But I thought, here I could work for three months at some hard work, and setting that goal and reaching it, and the education I could get from it, would be worthwhile. It would be a way of building up my confidence. I don’t think I will quit; I hope not. I hope it isn’t too hard. (Laughs)

42C: You just decided to strike out and do the hard thing that would mean the most for your own development, and you think you can stick, but you do have a few qualms about it.
43S: Yes, but I think I’ll be able to stand it. (Pause) Another thing. Can you explain this? I have a number of girl friends who write me, and they always tell me everything they have done, all the little details of what they’re doing and things like that. But when I write them I have a repugnance about telling them the details of what I’m doing. Why would that be?
43C: You really can’t understand why you don’t like to reveal what you’re doing.
44S: Well, you see – (he goes on with an involved description of what they write him, and what he does not write them, and tries to give some explanation, which is composed mostly of sentences half-completed, and then a fresh start. The material was too confused to get good notes.)
44C: It’s really hard to dig that out, isn’t it?
45S: (Slowly) No. It’s hard to admit. (Laughs)
45C: Oh, I see. (Pause)
46S: I don’t know whether I can explain this or not, but I think the real trouble is that I don’t want to read stuff about them having a good time without me. That isn’t because I’m jealous. It’s just that if I’m not in on it, it isn’t important. And when I don’t write them details of what I do, I guess that it’s just a funny kind of wishful thinking that they saw it in the same way and felt the same way about it. (Pause) I wonder how I got so self-centered.When people tell me I’m selfish, I can explain it away, and prove that I’m not selfish, but when I see what I’m doing –
46C: You feel that you’re really very self-centered, and that that explains this seemingly odd attitude about what you put in your letters.

47S: Yeah. I think one reason for this is that when I was young I was cute and admired, especially by girls. I’ve had a feeling of wanting everything and giving nothing. I like a circle of admirers. I feel they should be interested in me just because I’m me. That’s thoroughly ridiculous, of course. I think I’ve been more conscious of this sort of thing in the past five years.

47C: You can see pretty clearly some of the reasons why you are so self-centered.
48S: I’ve tried to think out this question, whether if I solved my problems, this selfish business would disappear too. Also I feel I can visualize the kind of program I need to meet the other problems, but I can’t quite see it in regard to this. Yet – maybe that shows that I don’t quite want to get rid of it. Yet it could do me more harm perhaps than the others.
48C: You feel that maybe this aspect of it is even more important than the others.
49S: I think as you grow older, that your circle of admirers grows smaller, and so I may have to change in spite of myself. But I would rather change because I want to!
49C: Well, Frank, our time’s about up. You have been doing a lot of thinking and putting a lot of your thoughts into action, haven’t you?
50S: This has helped a lot. It has gotten things a lot clearer.
50C: You’ve gotten things clearer, and you feel that through your recent actions you have begun to take yourself in hand.
51S: Yes, and you know, I don’t think advice would have helped.
51C: Well, that’s my conviction too.
52S: You know last time you wondered why I didn’t go. I was waiting, because I was thinking that you would probably have a program for me. But as I got to thinking it over afterward, I thought probably this was your way of working, and that I was making the program, and that probably it was better that way.
52C: That is our way of working here, and the reason for it is the very one you give, that it works much better that way. The program which you can work out for yourself is much better than any we might try to give you. Now I don’t know whether you want another interview – it will be a little difficult because of the end of the term.
53S: Well, I expect to take this job, and I don’t think I will need to come back.

53C: That’s what I thought you would probably feel. I wish you lots of luck on your job, and hope you can stick to it, as you want to do.
54S: Well, thanks, I’ll let you know how I come out.
54C: That would be much appreciated. Goodbye.
END OF FINAL SESSION





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