Thank you again for this authorization; in fact, I would like to publish this entire correspondence, if you do not oppose, on my website, as I think it is most important to provide the public with all the available information. The photos I left in Bosnia, but no one aware with them so they did not interested to add to the text.
That's a pity, I would have dearly liked to see your report illustrated!
And thanks for the references.
Thank you and as I told you first time, you have the right to publish any thing you want to publish.
If you have a look to the topographic map of the region, the contour lines of the hill can say why I do not think that natural processes may create such feature. You can see the northern side as perfect triangular shape, well oriented E-W and make 90 with the adjoin eastern side. Such feature for me is not related to natural process,
but man made. I think we can totally agree on the fact that Visocica northern side is
actually triangular, and that the eastern one is also roughly
triangular. But, without further evidence, I am doubtful when you say
that this feature "is not related to natural process". I have seen, as
I'm sure you also have, numerous strange natural features; as far as I
have seen, triangular mountain sides are not so rare in this part of
Bosnia, if generally not so perfect.
Here is the normal argument between researchers. It is valid to find differences between researchers in this concern. Some of the them say they are totally natural feature while some others say they are modified by man. Although, I see that the Visocica hill modified by man to be a pyramid, I respect the other views say it is natural. I appreciate the different view in science, because it enhances our knowledge on the topic. In this regard, I refer to definite feature (Fig. 1 from the attached photos). This is a plate of sandstone rock found by the foundation in 2006 the site. I referred to it as a natural micro-fold structure, while Prof. Darew Andretta investigated the curved lines as man made. This is normal between researchers.
Beginning with the five other hills Mr. Osmanagic has proclaimed pyramids on the basis of their more or less triangular sides :-) (by the way, your report says nothing about these
other "pyramids": I believe you saw at least Pljesevica; do you think, like Mr. Osmanagic, it is also a pyramid?)
Concerning the other pyramids;
Pljesevica, the local inhabitants informed me that, there are tunnels leading to rooms inside the hill. Many old persons confirmed this. Accordingly, we made systematic excavation on the two sides of the Pljesevica. There are few marks on man interference represented by small room-like construction in between the two sides. Before I left to Egypt, the work exposed vertical hole in the western side. Until now I do not know their extends and their purposes. So, I deal with the situation with more care.
Dragon, I made one visit to it, I did not report any interesting feature, except ancient tool marks on the surface of some stones on the hill noticed by Dr. Amer Smailbegovic. This feature may indicate that the site was used as ancient quarry for sandstone blocks? No detailed work was carried out on the site.
I did not investigate other sites more.
If I do not doubt that some human interventions took place on Visocica
at various times in the past (see also below), I think that the point
where I have to disagree with you, at least without further evidence, is
the *extent* of these interventions: the entire re-shaping of a hill
this big, if, of course, not impossible, would have to be very solidly
argumented to convince me, and nothing I read or saw on the Foundation
website offers any evidence.
I hope the foundation searches for the stones falling from the hill in the surrounding valleys and shows representative artifacts on the website. I hope they find the stones used by local inhabitants. I hope to involve persons who aware with the historical features. Dr. Andretta suggested work program includes several topics that must be investigated, paleoclimte, the tectonic history of the area, rate of weathering, paleobotany, recent plants, documentations, legends, the travelers writings, prehistory, historical events, geology, hydrology every thinks that has impact on the hills. He found evidence of a relatively recent tectonic movement(s), changed the way of the river near the site.
The foundation also has different view than me. So, they do not consider my work worth of interest.
The western side is straight. Decomposed constructed material may be
observed in the midway during your going up to the top of the hill.
This feature was reported by Dr. Andretta in June 2006, but I did not
see what he see at that time. We are altogether but I did not able to
recognize his view. Of course he more acute observer and more
experiences than me. Of course, the presence of construction material would not be very
surprising on a hill that has been populated at least since the Bronze
Age, according to Mr. Andelic's book (you can read this article
http://irna.lautre.net/Real-archaeology-in-Visoko.html about the prehistoric settlements in Visoko on my website). Pertaining to Dr. Andretta, do you know wether he intends to publish something about what he saw in Visoko, and whether he is still involved in the project? Please, go up on the northern and eastern side of the hill, you will
find the natural thin shale layer that intercalated naturally with
the breccia/conglomerate rock, which made up the main mass of the
hill, is removed to expose a white straight and smooth hard faces.
But if these sides of the hill are dip-slopes, as I supposed from the
information obtained from Dr. Smailbegovic and the geologic map (see
here: http://irna.lautre.net/Geology-of-the-Bosnian-pyramids.html), it would not be surprising to find, once removed the superficial and altered layers, the hard layer that is precisely at the top of Lasva series stratigraphy, would it? I'm not sure I understand precisely your meaning here, some photographs or a sketch would help much.
White slaps are arranged on these two faces following the general slope. You mention in your comments that they are natural, but in fact unambiguously artificial and I will send you photo of this feature. Well, I would really like to receive these photos, of course. What is more, if these slabs are unambiguously artificial, it should be easy to
demonstrate, and Mr. Osmanagic will soon be able to show some evidence,
like geological discordances, tool marks, the quarry where the slabs
come from and so on.
What I observed are artificial slabs on the northern and eastern sides of the hill (See Fig. 2, in the attachment). They are different from that you show on the website. What also recognized by Prof. Andretta seems like slabs intercalated with country rock of the hill.
Perfect shaped Rectangular books of hard conglomerate not from the
area. They are found behind the hill on the plateau. These blocks are
similar to that of the Great pyramid in size and shape (nearly 2.5
ton). I still think that they were transported from the eastern
desert of Egypt until Bosnian geologist tell that he know the real
quarry in Bosnia that they were cut from it. I ask the Visoko museum
staff about these blocks they informed me that they are tombstones. I
do not think so (ok. but from where these blocks were brought). All artificial blocks on the ground are tombstones in Bosnia? Well, I suppose that the archaeologists from Visoko museum know a little bit about Bosnian archaeology, and as *stecci* (the medieval tombstones in Bosnia) are something unique and an important part of the Bosnian historic wealth, I would not dismiss so easily their opinion. What is
more, the book by Pavao Andelic (of which parts were translated to you,
but maybe not some of the most interesting ones), "Visoko i Okolina kroz
Istoriju", mentions precisely the existence of a medieval necropolis on
this exact place, on the plateau "between the village Grad and the
fortress". The exact sentence (p. 160) is: "Traces of a middle medieval
cemetary around our agglomeration [meaning: the fortress, royal town and
the surrounding villages] are found on the crest between the village
Grad and the fortress [which was, as you know, on the summit of
Visocica]. There can today still be seen one (damaged) stecak [Bosnian
name for these tombstones], and it is known that there were more of them
in former times". I can send you a scan of this page, if you wish to ask
for another translation. Pavao Andelic et al, published the nice book entitled " Visoko I Okolina Kroz Historiju" (1984). They mention that the hill is natural but they refer to human activities that contributed to the shape of the hill. Also the interesting feature in this concern, their mentioning that the archaeology of the site is not studied yet, this
means that no body can understand the full story and history of this hill. This was confirmed by the accident finding of artifacts on the top by military (not by archaeologists). As I mentioned earlier, I have read (in Bosnian as I can read it quite easily) large parts of this book, and I think that maybe you were given a slightly wrong idea of its content. I could find no reference to human activities "that contributed to the shape of the hill", except the mention of several terraces and platforms on the slopes, particularly on the south-east side, and on the south side of the hill below the medieval fortress. These artificial terraces bore medieval settlements (and it seems that some remains of these may have been destroyed, as geologist Nadija Nukic mentions the finding of remains of hearths that were later suppressed. But in all the parts of the book I could read (about prehistory and Middle Ages), there is no mention of giving a
triangular shape to Visocica. Pertaining to the expression "city pyramid", I have received a scan of the entire chapter. The word "pyramid" is used twice: first, on page
158, where the author explains the strategic location of the fortress on
Visocica, and writes about the hill: "Seen from the Bosna valley,
Visocica, with the ruins of Visoko town, looks like a big four-sided
pyramid". Then on page 159, the sentence mentioning a long wall along
the "northern angle of the city pyramid". I must mention that the word
"grad", which means "city", is also the name of the entire hill (and of
the village on the plateau), so that the translation could also be "of
the hill pyramid". I really think that the word pyramid is used here
exclusively in a descriptive meaning, as one could use the word "tower"
or "wall" to describe a natural rock shelf for instance, and that it
absolutely cannot be used as an evidence of anything, and surely not as
evidence of a reference to a man-made pyramid.
I agree with you that they did not mentioned man made pyramid. But the statement “city pyramid” is interesting even it is of descriptive meaning. I will refer to the pages that talking about man work affected the shape of the hill and write to you for more details. These pages translated to me in Visoko by many different persons.
Before I forget to mention it, a Bosnian friend answered me that about
the word "misir" (not "miser") that you say is used in Visoko to refer
to the site: "To your question about the word "Misir": yes, it is quite common in
usage in Bosnia and is considered a Turkism - there are words like
"misir" for a kind of corn, "misiraca", "misirka" or "mesiraca" that
stands for a kind of pumpkin, "misirbaba" (word of Jewish-Persian
origin) that stands for a beardless man (also implying impotence),
"Misirlija" - Egyptian and "misirlija" - horse trained in an Egyptian
manner (Mameluk)." Other Bosnian geologists- (Mensur Omerbashich (2007): Bosnian
“Pyramids”: Hills shaped by Romans. http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/.
(September 20, 2007)- sees that Romans shaped the northern side to
oriented it in east-west for watching and recording the militaries
campaign of the enemies (their rights) and me see this was to shape
Ok. I will consider all these meaning in the paper and acknowledge your contribution in this regard. I will also refer to the documents papers for more understanding.
I would not give much credence to Mr. Omerbashich's theories. I have
read his blog, and exchanged a few mails with him (see here
http://irna.lautre.net/Pyramids-shaped-by-Romans.html). As far as I
respect his knowledge as geodesist and geophysicist, he is not a field
geologist and seems unable to recognize simple sedimentary features like
Liesegang rings that, as Mr. Osmanagic before him, he interprets as a
shoe-mould; he is no archaeologist either, and maybe ventures quite far
from his field of competence when he constructs his theory with the
utmost disdain for the knowledge of the specialists - that he admits
never having read. And, lastly, judging by the subject and the tone of
his last posts, and of the posts on his other blog
(http://bosniafordummies.blogspot.com/), he is much more interested in
his nationalist agenda than in science in this affair...
I agree with you. I refer to Mr. Omerbashich's theories, to show that there are different interpretations to the feature and the different views are worthy of consideration.
We reported human bones in a grave on the plateau with black material
in a vessel. I think it represent liquid food during historical
times, because I ask if this feature is known during the prehistoric
time, museum specialists informed me: No. this feature appeared in
definite time in Egypt. The people provided food to the died person. I can send you the reference if you interesting. What much intrigues me is the fact that this discovery of yours, which seems quite interesting, was never even *mentioned* by any of the
Foundation team. Was any archaeologist present when you found these
bones? or sent later to study them? I find quite troubling the fact that
Mr. Osmanagic never mentioned this, when he is so prone to claim
fantastic discoveries on his website. Do you have any picture of the place?
And I would have the same question about the artifacts you mention. I'm
not surprised at all that you found various neolithic tools, given the
fact that man has been present in this region for at least 7000 years,
not to find one artifact would have been really strange :-). But as far
as I know these artifacts have never been shown by the Foundation on
their website (when they have shown a lot of "pseudo-artifacts"...).
This kind of mysteries may give credence to the opinion of some
"anti-pyramid" bloggers in Bosnia, who think that Mr. Osmanagic has
hidden the artifacts, which do not suit his fantastic chronology. If you
have any information about this, I would really appreciate the sharing!
This mail is already much too long!
Yeas, there were three archaeologists involved in the project at that time; Miss Silvana Cobanov (Bosnian) and Miss Nancy Gallou (Grecian), while Miss Lamia El Hadidy (Egyptian) jointed the team for nearly 10 days. I try to explain the situation in detail.
The material was found behind Visocica hill, as you try to access the site from the valley, opposite to the foundation wood room. The work in this site was before me, but I watch the work going on during my stay in Visoko in May-June 2006. The work exposed a geometric space excavated in the sandstone rock (see sketch to imagine the description, Fig. 3, vertical view). It was hidden by sands and above the sand the mud layer. Inside it you see different levels of the original excavations. We found stones standing like columns in the lower wide level, and one polished stones of cylinder shape (about 30 cm long and nearly 15 cm diameter). The archaeological team reported fragment of bones on the wide lower level of the site. One day, the group showed me fragments of black material within the removed sediments of the site. It is very similar to the fragments that we found in the Egyptian Deserts. What we found in the Egyptian Deserts? During our examinations the ancient Jars (pottery) or food vessels, we see the remains of the liquid food or drinks in the form of solidified black material similar in appearance to coal. Definitely, under the foot of a hill in the Fayium Desert,, and along the ancient desert track connecting the Egyptian oases. There was a trade line between these oases and the Mediterranean Countries. Transportation of wine from the oases abroad was active during the ancient times. There is a store of Jars (wide Pottery Vessels) under the foot of the hill. One charge was left by the ancient people in the site (we don’t know why). Nowadays, you meet the bracken jars. The liquids hosted at these jars are now like coal exactly similar in appearance to coal. Why we say it was liquid? Because, it takes the shape of the hosted vessels. Back again to the site, we watched a black streak in the sand layer covering the site. I followed the fine streaks to find it comes from the eastern side of the site. My observation was nearly right, because the excavation showed in this side a human burial (bones). If I right (in my own observation) it is oriented N.S. But, what I am sure there is a vessel of pottery on the extreme southern point of this side adjoins the body (or the bones) and contains the main mass of the black material. I also noticed the occurrence of friable red fragments of hematite with the bones. I know that prehistoric man prized hematite, and preserved hematite fragments in graves with the died persons, for its color which similar to the blood (according to some investigations) but I do know if the same in later times or not. Please, if you have definite idea concerning the topic, I will be grateful if you tell me.
My personal interpretation is one of:
The died person(s) have their food with them?
The alive peoples (probably from the family of the died person(s)) visited the site from time to time to provide them liquid food.
The black material may represent preserved organs of the died person(s).
Why I think that the material seems to represent liquid food? This is because, the black streaks are observed through the sand deposits covering the lower level part, so you may expect that it flowed from the original point through the sands. Otherwise, the black streaks in the sands may represent tiny grains eroded away from the main material and dispersed in the whole site by the action of rains. I would like to tell you that this is different from the feature observed in natural sites as black streaks resulted from transferring the plants roots to charcoal naturally. This is because, in this feature, you can observe that the black streaks in the sands joint the black material, which is preserved in the vessel.
I do not consider my self right in these conclusions, but this is what I can say in this concern, if any one asks my opinion. Amway, no one supported this view and the archaeologists at that time do not deal with situation as worthy of interest. They were responsible on the artifact and me personally are extremely sensitive toward such fine archaeological material, because I am not archaeologist. In fact, this feature is interesting to me. I tried to understand the situation by myself. I visited the Museum many times asking about the habits that were and are still followed towards the died peoples, but nothing I gained.
Unfortunately, I do not have photos for this feature, because, I left it to the archaeologists, who still excavate while I left Visoko to Egypt.
They informed me that the excavation stopped for the problem between the foundation and the owner of the land and every thing still in the ground.
But I still have a few questions I would ask you, if you accept to
answer, not related directly with your report. I hope you will not
resent it as rude from me that I ask so much questions, but, having
followed this story for almost two years, and having read so much about
it, that's the first time I have the opportunity to discuss it with
someone directly involved-and having the necessary scientific
background, which is not the case with the voluntaries and
"pyramid-believers" you can meet on forums... So, here are my last
questions for today :-)- Have you been able to read the report written by Ms. Nadija Nukic about the drill-holes (not the one translated in English which is present
on the Foundation website, but the one which, according to Ms. Nukic,
was never published)? I understand you have met, when you were in Visoko, Bosnian geologists and archeologists: did you discuss with them your idea of a man-shaped hill?
- Are you aware that every scientist of the team has left the project,
some at the beginning and some later? As far as I know, there is now
only one scientist in the team, an English archaeologist named Andrew
Lawler, all the others are gone.
The first geologist I met in Visoko was Ms. Nadija Nukic. She is very cleaver geologist and she aware with the geology of the site and she provided many help to the project with here husbanded. I discussed with here all my idea about the site. I am very upset because, I did not meet her the last short trip to Visoko. I tried to find her phone, but there is no way. During may stay I met many geologists from different parts of the world. We exchanged ideas about the site.
believers, writers, librarians, mechanical engineers and so on, who
regularly publish on the Foundation website their deliriums (pyramids
being gigantic oscillators or radiators, ghosts in the tunnels, stone
spheres used as energy concentrators and this kind of rubbish)?
I am very sad because, there are no scientific team now, except Mr. Andrew
Lawler. I contacted some of the researchers that in the project from the beginning and I met some of them last trip. I keep a good feeling for them. Prof. Darew Andretta is very cleaver and highly cultured person. He provided valuable ideas to the team and me.
Please, try to get his email from Ms. Nadija Nukic and kindly send me to contact him. In last week of 2006 visit, I was ill and I decided to return home without any arrangement. So, I did not have the emails of many persons, including him.
I surely will find other questions in a few days:-), but it will
suffice for tonight! Sorry again to bother you with such demands, but,
after all, you offered to answer my questions-not knowing, maybe, what
an inexhaustible asker I can reveal myself :-). I really hope to hear from you soon,
You are welcome. I am very happy to write you and I hope that my answer introduce something. I am also happy for the comments that you provided in this concern and I will quote them in my writings.